Sol
2005-09-01, 03:36 PM
When WOW was young we had a big informative discussion about how to play in groups. A lot of HLS members hadn't played in groups a whole lot. So we wrote back and forth about how to apply group tactics and this thread was born!! Just copying this over from the other forums. Some of this is outdated since we've learned so much together raiding LBRS, then UBRS and now we're in MC.
From the spam list. This is great information and I just want to preserve it on the forum here. Feel free to add to the discussion.. here or there.
-----------------------------------------------
THWAK:
Despoiler and I were talking a bit and I figured I'd share some of what
we discussed with the group. I am sure most of this is already known
but perhaps not. Either way it is worth reinforcing.
MA: Main Assist.
Unless you are a warrior, healer or doing crowd control, this is the
person you are assisting. You can use CT_RaidAssist mod to set the Main
Assist or you can make a macro ( /assist playername).
The reasoning behind this should be obvious. A mob at 10% health does
100% damage - in the case of enrage even more than 100%. Add on the fact
that low health mobs can run, call for help, etc... Everyone focusing on
one mob decreases damage taken by the group by a factor of 10 and makes
life easier on everyone.
MT: Main Tank.
This is the person that should pull (in most situations). Main Tank is
probably going to spend most of the fight in Defensive Stance trying to
keep on top of the hate list of several different mobs. It is bad to use
the Main Tank as the person to assist off of because sometimes the MT
doesn't have much hate generated on a particular mob therefore any
damage done by a DPS class to this mob will likely pull it off the tank.
The only person that should assist the Main Tank is the Main Assist.
Likewise, if the Main Assist is hitting the Main Tank's mob then
everyone will be hitting it due to them all assisting the Main Assist.
This will ensure that that mob will go down fast so the tank can forget
about keeping agg on that mob and move to the next.
The reason I believe Main Tank should pull is due to the defensive
stance of a warrior and it's limited rage generating ability. A
defensive warrior not getting hit is likely not generating rage which in
turn means he is likely not able to hold aggro unless he uses his taunt.
Taunt has a fairly significant cooldown that is at least twice as long
as it takes a 59 elite to kill Soy so it's nice to save it for moments
like that and not have to spam it repeatedly.
Exceptions to the above are very few but I will list a couple that I
think are valid reasons to break from the above.
CC: Crowd Control - It is neccessary for crowd control classes (mage,
warlock) to break from the Main Assist target since if they CC the MA's
target it is just going to keep getting beat on.
Save the priest - Saving the priest is always priority but there are
ways to do this and it doesn't always involve leaving the mob you are
currently targeted.
This is the tough one as if you leave the MA target to save the priest
then you aren't killing one of the mobs which in turn means someone dies
or the priest/druid generates even more aggro from trying to heal
someone that is getting beat on by a mob that should be dead had
everyone stayed on the MA's target.
I would think the best form of priest protection comes from a
mage/warlock (unless a mob is already CC'ed) - with second place being
pets. Turn on pet taunt and distracting shot (if you're a hunter). Main
Assist should not leave the MA target. It is hard for people to notice
the MA switching targets before the initial target dies... therefore you
have two targets now. This makes Rogues better MA's than Hunters since
Hunter's have range and therfore faster response to healer aggro.
One of the situations I believe happened alot last night was that people
would see Warcaster (just an example, I think) taking aggro and try to
help him. Helping often would mean repeatedly breaking sheep however
which is no help at all. Wink Staying on the MA's target would have
prevented this and the mob that was aggro'd on Warcaster would have been
sheep'd and saved for the end.
The only time you should leave the MA's target is to protect the
healer... and this is very situational and class dependent to a degree.
If you know you can steal aggro or nuke it down quick then go for it -
otherwise stay on the MA.
If a mage or warlock pulls aggro they have the tools to deal with it -
so long as they aren't interfered with. Mages and warlocks should not
take this as meaning they can just nuke the piss out of the MA's target
however. If you are taking aggro from the MA's target you are likely
going to die since you won't be able to CC it with everyone hitting it
and frost nova could very well get you additional aggro from mobs that
were otherwise just fine with you. So be mindfull of your damage output.
hunters can feign as can rogues to a degree to drop agg - I don't
believe mages/locks have any such ability other than CC which will not
work on the MA's target. Also, healing the mage/lock is a very bad deal
for the healer as they need to chain heal/shield which not only is mana
inefficient but very heavy aggro. As a cleric in EQ I would often let
wizards that couldn't stay off the aggro list die as it was many times a
choice between me being the healer dieing (group wipe) or them (longer
fight). No brainer.
Also I would say in most circumstances it is good to hold back a bit
before attacking to let the tank establish aggro on the group and then
only assist the MA. If they MA picks the melee target instead of a
warlock then that's the MA's fault. Nobody should be correcting that by
switching off of the MA however. If you are a mage or warlock you can CC
the other mob but otherwise stay on the MA.
Order of targets... well, this is situational and varies greatly
depending on which mobs you are fighting. In most circumstances as an
MA I choose the most damageing (or CC capable) caster first since they
usually stay at range, have low AC and HP (let the tanks sunder down the
melees) and it takes longer to kill the melees which means if you sheep
the caster and kill the melee there is a better chance of CC braking
before the first mob is dead. Additionally, let the warriors take the
melee mobs aggro since they have the AC to mitigate it whereas they take
as much damage as anybody against casters.
Whew... that was longer than I anticipated but still largely incomplete. Wink
Please comment on anything you disagree with, stating why and feel free
to add your own observations. As I previously stated, I believe most
everyone knows all this so it is just a refresher as last night was
somewhat dissapointing in that we were very sloppy as a whole. This is
far from fact and largely my opinion so feel free to disagree - just
give your reasoning. Wink
Ultimately we all want to be on the same page.... MAKE IT SO!
ROROROROROR!!!1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prozak:
Typically this is how I run Groups or Raids. 40 man raids are just
extensions of this.
MT- Main tank, his just is to keep as much tanked as he can. This is a
limit to the warrior only. Some warriors can hold agro on 5 some can
barely hold agro on 1, just depends how good they are.
MA- Main Assist, his job is to pick the target to die. Try to have this
person be very knowledgable. Know what dies first and is capable of
adjusting to strange situations. This person can have a macro saying
something like, "Please assist me on this target %t" or whatever.
CC people - CC people should try to tell the MA and MT what they are going
to sheep/sleep/charm/whatever. I tend to let them pick one target they
always target first. Like a conjurer or warlock or something. They will
go for that one first always.
The pull is made by warrior. He brings all to group. The CC people peel
off mobs and the MA waits a second for the warrior to get agro on the
target the MA is going to attack.
The problem is MA is going to get some agro, so it usually is best to keep
it someone close by the mobs (Second Tank, Rogue, a hunter that doesn't
mind meleeing if he has to).
The MTs job is to tank everything not crowd controled. No one should be
hitting the things not crowd controlled. The only agro building on these
mobs is heal agro. This is why the MT just taps them from time to time
with sunder or such to keep them full of hate for him.
The CC people should try to pull their mob away from the mobs being
tanked/killed. This will reduce the accidental breaks.
The MA and every DPS person blows through one target. Then, next and next
until the they are all dead. Usually leaving the CC targets for last.
You can use Raidassist to set up people for targeting. MA = 1, MT = 2,
This will allow CC to know what is being killed or hit and by who.
This leaves you with 3, 4, 5 and such for either CC people or secondary
tanks.
Everyone needs an assist macro, to assist Main assist. People wait until
the assist calls attack, then people move in. This way assist can help
reduce the confussion in the initial pull. People wait and do little to
pull agro from the warrior in the first few seconds, the CC is given some
time to secure thier target and it keeps everyone on the same target.
I have noticed that people grow impatient and attack before attack is
called, because MA hasn't picked a target. This means MA should be a
quick selector of prey, but it also means you need to watch impatient
people :p
Don't know if this was all obvious, or helpful, just thought I would chime
in :p
blak
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
continued:.
From the spam list. This is great information and I just want to preserve it on the forum here. Feel free to add to the discussion.. here or there.
-----------------------------------------------
THWAK:
Despoiler and I were talking a bit and I figured I'd share some of what
we discussed with the group. I am sure most of this is already known
but perhaps not. Either way it is worth reinforcing.
MA: Main Assist.
Unless you are a warrior, healer or doing crowd control, this is the
person you are assisting. You can use CT_RaidAssist mod to set the Main
Assist or you can make a macro ( /assist playername).
The reasoning behind this should be obvious. A mob at 10% health does
100% damage - in the case of enrage even more than 100%. Add on the fact
that low health mobs can run, call for help, etc... Everyone focusing on
one mob decreases damage taken by the group by a factor of 10 and makes
life easier on everyone.
MT: Main Tank.
This is the person that should pull (in most situations). Main Tank is
probably going to spend most of the fight in Defensive Stance trying to
keep on top of the hate list of several different mobs. It is bad to use
the Main Tank as the person to assist off of because sometimes the MT
doesn't have much hate generated on a particular mob therefore any
damage done by a DPS class to this mob will likely pull it off the tank.
The only person that should assist the Main Tank is the Main Assist.
Likewise, if the Main Assist is hitting the Main Tank's mob then
everyone will be hitting it due to them all assisting the Main Assist.
This will ensure that that mob will go down fast so the tank can forget
about keeping agg on that mob and move to the next.
The reason I believe Main Tank should pull is due to the defensive
stance of a warrior and it's limited rage generating ability. A
defensive warrior not getting hit is likely not generating rage which in
turn means he is likely not able to hold aggro unless he uses his taunt.
Taunt has a fairly significant cooldown that is at least twice as long
as it takes a 59 elite to kill Soy so it's nice to save it for moments
like that and not have to spam it repeatedly.
Exceptions to the above are very few but I will list a couple that I
think are valid reasons to break from the above.
CC: Crowd Control - It is neccessary for crowd control classes (mage,
warlock) to break from the Main Assist target since if they CC the MA's
target it is just going to keep getting beat on.
Save the priest - Saving the priest is always priority but there are
ways to do this and it doesn't always involve leaving the mob you are
currently targeted.
This is the tough one as if you leave the MA target to save the priest
then you aren't killing one of the mobs which in turn means someone dies
or the priest/druid generates even more aggro from trying to heal
someone that is getting beat on by a mob that should be dead had
everyone stayed on the MA's target.
I would think the best form of priest protection comes from a
mage/warlock (unless a mob is already CC'ed) - with second place being
pets. Turn on pet taunt and distracting shot (if you're a hunter). Main
Assist should not leave the MA target. It is hard for people to notice
the MA switching targets before the initial target dies... therefore you
have two targets now. This makes Rogues better MA's than Hunters since
Hunter's have range and therfore faster response to healer aggro.
One of the situations I believe happened alot last night was that people
would see Warcaster (just an example, I think) taking aggro and try to
help him. Helping often would mean repeatedly breaking sheep however
which is no help at all. Wink Staying on the MA's target would have
prevented this and the mob that was aggro'd on Warcaster would have been
sheep'd and saved for the end.
The only time you should leave the MA's target is to protect the
healer... and this is very situational and class dependent to a degree.
If you know you can steal aggro or nuke it down quick then go for it -
otherwise stay on the MA.
If a mage or warlock pulls aggro they have the tools to deal with it -
so long as they aren't interfered with. Mages and warlocks should not
take this as meaning they can just nuke the piss out of the MA's target
however. If you are taking aggro from the MA's target you are likely
going to die since you won't be able to CC it with everyone hitting it
and frost nova could very well get you additional aggro from mobs that
were otherwise just fine with you. So be mindfull of your damage output.
hunters can feign as can rogues to a degree to drop agg - I don't
believe mages/locks have any such ability other than CC which will not
work on the MA's target. Also, healing the mage/lock is a very bad deal
for the healer as they need to chain heal/shield which not only is mana
inefficient but very heavy aggro. As a cleric in EQ I would often let
wizards that couldn't stay off the aggro list die as it was many times a
choice between me being the healer dieing (group wipe) or them (longer
fight). No brainer.
Also I would say in most circumstances it is good to hold back a bit
before attacking to let the tank establish aggro on the group and then
only assist the MA. If they MA picks the melee target instead of a
warlock then that's the MA's fault. Nobody should be correcting that by
switching off of the MA however. If you are a mage or warlock you can CC
the other mob but otherwise stay on the MA.
Order of targets... well, this is situational and varies greatly
depending on which mobs you are fighting. In most circumstances as an
MA I choose the most damageing (or CC capable) caster first since they
usually stay at range, have low AC and HP (let the tanks sunder down the
melees) and it takes longer to kill the melees which means if you sheep
the caster and kill the melee there is a better chance of CC braking
before the first mob is dead. Additionally, let the warriors take the
melee mobs aggro since they have the AC to mitigate it whereas they take
as much damage as anybody against casters.
Whew... that was longer than I anticipated but still largely incomplete. Wink
Please comment on anything you disagree with, stating why and feel free
to add your own observations. As I previously stated, I believe most
everyone knows all this so it is just a refresher as last night was
somewhat dissapointing in that we were very sloppy as a whole. This is
far from fact and largely my opinion so feel free to disagree - just
give your reasoning. Wink
Ultimately we all want to be on the same page.... MAKE IT SO!
ROROROROROR!!!1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prozak:
Typically this is how I run Groups or Raids. 40 man raids are just
extensions of this.
MT- Main tank, his just is to keep as much tanked as he can. This is a
limit to the warrior only. Some warriors can hold agro on 5 some can
barely hold agro on 1, just depends how good they are.
MA- Main Assist, his job is to pick the target to die. Try to have this
person be very knowledgable. Know what dies first and is capable of
adjusting to strange situations. This person can have a macro saying
something like, "Please assist me on this target %t" or whatever.
CC people - CC people should try to tell the MA and MT what they are going
to sheep/sleep/charm/whatever. I tend to let them pick one target they
always target first. Like a conjurer or warlock or something. They will
go for that one first always.
The pull is made by warrior. He brings all to group. The CC people peel
off mobs and the MA waits a second for the warrior to get agro on the
target the MA is going to attack.
The problem is MA is going to get some agro, so it usually is best to keep
it someone close by the mobs (Second Tank, Rogue, a hunter that doesn't
mind meleeing if he has to).
The MTs job is to tank everything not crowd controled. No one should be
hitting the things not crowd controlled. The only agro building on these
mobs is heal agro. This is why the MT just taps them from time to time
with sunder or such to keep them full of hate for him.
The CC people should try to pull their mob away from the mobs being
tanked/killed. This will reduce the accidental breaks.
The MA and every DPS person blows through one target. Then, next and next
until the they are all dead. Usually leaving the CC targets for last.
You can use Raidassist to set up people for targeting. MA = 1, MT = 2,
This will allow CC to know what is being killed or hit and by who.
This leaves you with 3, 4, 5 and such for either CC people or secondary
tanks.
Everyone needs an assist macro, to assist Main assist. People wait until
the assist calls attack, then people move in. This way assist can help
reduce the confussion in the initial pull. People wait and do little to
pull agro from the warrior in the first few seconds, the CC is given some
time to secure thier target and it keeps everyone on the same target.
I have noticed that people grow impatient and attack before attack is
called, because MA hasn't picked a target. This means MA should be a
quick selector of prey, but it also means you need to watch impatient
people :p
Don't know if this was all obvious, or helpful, just thought I would chime
in :p
blak
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
continued:.