A treatise on Defensive Warriors (No it’s not… Yes it is!)

[Ryndstrum]

To start with, I'm part of the Requiem guild, looks like we will be joining this little alliance soon. So hello to all you fine folks!

I noticed you had a long Warrior discussion thread going. Figured I'd repost a document I put up for my guild 6 months ago. As a FYI, I leveled up as a prot warrior, which I would not recommend. Play an Arms or Fury build until 60, then switch over to Prot if that floats your boat. Doing over, that's how I would have leveled up instead of the painfully-slow leveling I went thru. Still, I learned how to MT from the get-go, so maybe it wasn't all bad...

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(Clipped this from the old forums, which was clipped from the old, old forums)

Here is an update on my build-out, especially since the old forums blew up.

First, I have two hard rules when spending my talent points. First rule, aggro control. Second rule, damage mitigation. That’s it, all points spent need to fit under one of these two rules. This is an extreme build for one purpose, instance tanking. And my gear reflects this too. I’ve started to sacrifice stam gear in favor of +defense gear, which hopefully cuts down on the number of critical hits mob land against me. I would gladly lose out on 200-400 hitpoints to reduce some of those 1200+ crits.

Buildout Cheatsheet

Arms Talents (5 points)
Deflection - 5/5 points

Fury Talents (4 points)
Cruelty - 4/5 points

Protection Talents (42 points)
Shield Specialization - 5/5 points
Anticipation - 5/5 points
Toughness - 5/5 points
Improved Bloodrage - 2/2 points
Improved Revenge - 3/3 points
Improved Shield Block - 1/3 point
Defiance - 5/5 points
Improved Sunder Armor - 3/3 points
Improved Taunt - 2/2 points
Concussion Blow - 1/1 point
Improved Shield Bash - 2/2 points
Improved Shield Wall - 2/2 points
One-Handed Weapon Specialization - 5/5 points
Shield Slam - 1/1 point


(continued next post)

[Ryndstrum]

Breakdown/commentary of each skill in the protection tree:

Protection Talents (unless otherwise stated, I list the benefit full points give):

Shield Specialization (Increases your chance to block an attack with your shield by 5%, 5/5 points) – A no brainer here. I run with a 1h weapon and shield 95% of the time. Also have a Thorium Spike on my shield, so every block does 20-30 points of damage, which appears to ignore armor. Just another way to generate a little aggro.

Anticipation (Increases your Defense skill by 10, 5/5 points) – I have read all sorts of debate on this. It will increase your Dodge/Block/Parry a little bit (though less than 1% overall), and reduces critical hits on you. Maybe some other stuff too, no one really knows. Most tend to agree it is not worth 5 talent points, and I think they may be right. But my second rule dictates I take this. Anything that can help improve damage mitigation, no matter how minor it may seem, must be taken.

Improved Bloodrage (Decreases the health cost of your Bloodrage ability by 50%, 2/2 points) – Low DPS means low rage generation. I may be a defensive warrior, but I still want to use my abilities, and that takes rage. This is one of my must have talents. The 2 points makes bloodrage a viable option even when soloing, and it’s even better when grouped (less damage when using Bloodrage means more hits taken before a healer needs to step in). Start every meaningful fight with this.

Toughness (Increases Armor Value from your items by 10%, 5/5 points) – Another no brainer. Such a great talent that I think most Warriors grab it. More damage mitigation, ‘nuff said. Note: There has been a lot of debate about a soft cap around 8000 AC. That early thinking is probably incorrect. Don’t want to go into detail here (outside the scope of this little document), let’s just say while the percentage increase per 1000 armor added goes down at the high end, the more important that small increase becomes.

Iron Will (Increases your chance to resist Stun and Charm effects by 3% per point, 0/5 points) – Junk. Being undead, I have Will of the Forsaken. Even without that, just don’t see this making a lick of difference for me.

Last Stand (Instant Cast, 10 minute cooldown, when activated, temporarily grants your Warrior a 30% bonus of your maximum Hit Points for 20 seconds. After the effect expires, the Hit Points are lost, 0/1 points) – For one talent point, this is a nice ability, sort of. When I had it, saved my rear a few times when an unexpected add showed up while soloing. But in group situations, it can be tramatic: with the boosted hitpoints, the healer might think you are better off than you really are and do something else, the 20 seconds ends, you lose the bonus hitpoints, and if you already have a lot of damage, it can drop you to 1 hitpoint (used to kill you, but some patch a while ago ‘fixed’ that). Good communication, might be useful in certain situations, but just not worth 1 talent point.

Improved Shield Block (Allows your Shield Block ability to block an additional attack, and increases the duration of your Shield Block ability by 0.5 seconds. Can be upgraded to Rank 3 for a maximum skill duration increase of 2 seconds, 1/3 points) – Shield block is the heart and soul of a good protection Warrior. Not for the blocking ability, though that is nice at increasing damage mitigation and adding rage (thanks to the last patch, 1 rage per block). No, getting a block is the single best method for lighting up revenge, which is a fantastic aggro generator. Sunder is also great at generating aggro, but costs 12 rage (with talents), while revenge costs a paltry 5 rage. I drop one point into Improved Shield Block to get the extra block.

Improved Revenge (Gives your Revenge ability a 40% chance to stun the target for 3 seconds, 3/3 points) – In my opinion, the best bang for the buck in the tree. You are already using Revenge and Sunder to support the first rule, aggro control. Why not get a 40% chance to stun. Doesn’t proc as often as you would think, but is a great bonus to something you are using every chance you get.

Defiance (Increases the threat generated by your attacks in Defensive Stance by 15%, 5/5 points) – Another very debatable ability. The first rule steps in here, though, and anything that helps increase aggro control is taken. And based on guild feedback, I –am- able to hold aggro better than a DPS based warrior.

Improved Sunder Armor (Reduces rage cost by 3, 3/3 points) – While I would like to use Revenge for all my aggro control, it just doesn’t light up all the time, so Sunder is needed. It appears to be as effective at generating hate as Revenge. I certainly use Sunder a ton. Anything to reduce the cost of using Sunder is great in my book. It is the single most used aggro generator in my arsenal. Side benefit is helping all the high DPS melee characters by reducing armor (you can get to the max 2250 sunder armor in a hurry in some fights).

Improved Disarm (Increase the duration of your Disarm ability by 1 second, up to 3 seconds, 0/3 points) – Bah, more junk. The baseline ability is good enough, the talent points are much better used elsewhere.

Improved Taunt (Reduce the cooldown timer on your Taunt ability by 2 seconds, 2/2 points) – Here is what I said last go-round: “You wouldn’t think 2 seconds would mean much, but this is the most important points I’ve spent in this entire tree. Wow. What a major difference this makes for aggro control.” Now-a-days, sitting at level 60, very rarely do I need to spam taunt. In fact, if I really needed 2 talent points elsewhere, I’d be willing to sacrifice it. But when the crap starts to fly, I must admit having the shorter timer is nice to start getting mobs back on me. When using it, only use it on monsters not aggroed to you. It puts you at the top of the hate list by one point over the original top dog. If you already have aggro, it does not change anything and now you have a cooldown of 8 seconds before you can use again. Also, since you only have one little hate point more than the person you just grabbed aggro from, always wait for enough rage for Sunder BEFORE using the taunt. Taunt, followed immediately by a Sunder, will usually mildly lock the mob onto you (Taunt makes up whatever gap in hate exists between you and the person at the top of the hate list, then the follow-up Sunder bounces you way up the hate list giving you the mild lock). Otherwise, when taunt wears off, they tend to pop right back to the poor slob they were already beating on. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve lost patience and used my Taunt without enough rage for a follow-up Sunder. Taunt wears off, aggro is lost, stuck waiting for Taunt to cooldown before trying again.

Improved Shield Wall (Increases the effect duration of your Shield Wall by 5 seconds, 2/2 points) – Very situational since it has a 30 minute cooldown. But for those really tough bosses (Dire Maul tribute run), it helps keep you in the game longer. So what do those 5 seconds mean? 15 seconds instead of the default 10 is a 50% increase. Oh, the baseline ability will block 75% of all incoming damage. All damage. 75% less. For 15 seconds. Could make the difference between success and a complete wipe.

Improved Shield Bash (Gives your Shield Bash ability a 100% chanced to Silence the target for 3 seconds, 2/2 points) – Another must have. This is my anti-caster ability. I can use this, followed by a Concussion Blow, and by the time the caster comes out I can Shield Bash again. That’s usually a good 10-15 seconds into a fight before a caster finally has a window to get something off (cooldown on Concussion Blow is 45 seconds, btw).

Concussion Blow (15 rage cost, instant attack, 45 second cooldown. A brutal strike that stuns for 5 seconds, 1/1 points) – Whoa momma, more useful than I would have ever imagined. Great for keeping casters out of the action longer, a chance to do a little bandaging, keeping mobs from running, locking a mob down while you run away, or simply to lessen your beatings. For one talent point, this ability rocks! Downside, most high end bosses are immune to stun.

One-Handed Weapon Specialization (Increases the damage you deal with one-handed weapons by 10%, 5/5 points) – The final no-brainer of the tree. I am doing the 1h/shield thing 95% of the time, might as well do a little more damage, get a little more rage to generate.

Shield Slam (30 rage cost, Slam the target with your shield, causing damage and has a 50% chance to dispel 1 magic effect on the target. Also causes a moderate amount of threat, 1/1 point) – Not something that bowls me over, mainly due to the rage cost. Still, it is an improvement over the old top end ability, which blew major chunks. I will say the slam tends to crit a lot, which is low-end execute numbers (600-900 damage). But whenever I have 30 rage built up to actually use it, fight is almost always an easy one.

[Myrkris]

Nice info, thanks for posting it.

[Soy]

Bless you for making a defensive spec'd Warrior. That's all I got to say.

[Sol]

oh man!! another warrior treatise! I love reading other warrior's thoughts.

i have to echo your sentiment... I went for protection early and stayed protection for quite a while at 60. I felt the bloodlust and went to a 31/5/15 build though and i really enjoy it. I MT for HLS although lately i've been starting to try and get other Tanks the MT duties more so we can get them trained in. So many Tanks are forced to learn to tank in PUG's or have 90% exp solo and 10% MT'ing... and its easily one of the busiest and most complex jobs in WOW to Pull/MT/assign CC, but I love it. Its a whole different game playing some of the other positions.

The most important single thing for a warrior is experience and good gear, though. There are a few must-have talents for a MT over in Protection, but I feel like a nice set of +def coupled with +sta gear (they usually go hand-in-hand) is your best choice if you MT. If you are a MA tank or a DPS tank, by all means, get yourself a set of +crit gear. If you are like me and want to MT in MC, then make sure your Fire Resist gear set is boosting you over 100.

I especially liked your Comments on holding Aggro. you have a great point about spamming taunt... don't do it. Esp. if you are second or third warrior on a mob. let the MT who had original aggro keep it. Why? Well there are 2 schools of thought. There is the ping-pong method which at first glance you think it might help the healers, and sometimes it does if the healers are silenced or have some other problem. Most of the time though, its easier for the healers to concentrate on 1 tank and it also easier on the main tank to keep aggro on their mob. If I see it switch off me and 3 rogues and 2 DPS tanks are on the target, i seldom can tell who nabbed aggro. was it a rogue? was it another tank (safer)?

regarding taunt, playing with some seriously unrestrained warlocks and mages, you learn to not spend taunt frivolously. Best situation, you burn Demoralizing shout on the pull and then you get a couple wacks in and then the big fireballs and shadowbolts come whizzing in and you fire off taunt just as they get there so that the mob doesn't even blink. Sunder armor is a huge asset as well, and too many times i see it neglected.

one last thing... i love Last Stand and I've had it forever. I use it in tougher boss fights and during pulls gone wrong to buy time for the healers. If you have a ton of major healing potions, then last stand is less important. I have my healers on ventrilo voice comms with me and I usually warn them that I'm using it. I usually chase last stand with a health stone or a major healing potion anyway, just to address the risk factor of when it wears off. Very notable though to me that Last Stand doesn't seem to get me killed when it wears off. I also warn them when I pop the AE taunt as well. Good comms are a must.

when I had conc blow and revenge, I noticed i was giving mobs and pvp opponents stun immunity with disturbing frequency. I do spam revenge for the hate generation though.

Lately, ZG has started forcing me to change tactics a bit for aggro/equipment. Last night when we dropped Venoxis, I experimented with using bonescraper dagger for better aggro.. I love my Timeworn mace, but a really fast 1H does seem to help with holding aggro. I think you have a bone-slicer, which I might just put onto my wishlist if I see it. When the mob has 5 sunders stacked on it, and I have 80 rage, its pretty awesome to spam Heroic strike 4-5 times in a row for damage + threat generation.

oh well, there I go again with my addiction to warrior talk. sorry for the long post. I think most of the HAWC warriors that are MT'ing every night are gonna say "well duh" to my post, but hopefully the unconverted masses will have learned something.

[Myrkris]

My god Sol, you're going to have warriors rolling on daggers with talk like that! The rogues are going to be out for your head, boss...

[Sol]

Bless you for making a defensive spec'd Warrior. That's all I got to say.


That's all i needed to be pushed over the edge, I'm rerolling full protection spec tonight. i gotta do it for soymilk, that guy is an agg magnet... gg rockbiter.

[Ryndstrum]

Hmm, it's been a few months since I've really looked at my treatise, and your Last Stand comments (basically "I love it") actually makes sense. Now that I'm getting into the bigger raid content, Last Stand along with Shield Wall (both used at different times) would really help on those nasty bosses.

I will probably respec and yank a point from Cruely (what's another 1% less chance to crit) and stick it in Last Stand, get used to having that ability around again...

[Myrkris]

That's all i needed to be pushed over the edge, I'm rerolling full protection spec tonight. i gotta do it for soymilk, that guy is an agg magnet... gg rockbiter.

Which would be why I never use Rockbiter in groups...

[Potpie]

Warrior: Oh hello good shaman, are you using Rockbiter?

Shaman: Yes

Warrior: Cool! You're MT tonight, enjoy.

[Beagle]

Think I'm gonna respec prot. tonight too.....it's my role and I should embrace it :D
The only decision left really is wheather to hold onto tactical mastery or not. As much as I love switching stances with ease, it seems there might be better end tree protection talents for me to throw those 4-5 points into.....farewell execute *salute*
Oh, and last stand is....I have not the words for my love unto thee. It's like always having a big fat potion waiting for you!!
-be

[Potpie]

I respec'd Ctuchik 5 / 5 / 41 Friday evening and had a BLAST MT'ing the group in BRD!

It really made a huge difference from when I had tanked with him in the past -- when he was on his Mortal Strike spec.

[Soy]

That's all i needed to be pushed over the edge, I'm rerolling full protection spec tonight. i gotta do it for soymilk, that guy is an agg magnet... gg rockbiter.

haha, I've eased up on the Rockbiter lately. Now I'm all about the Frostbrand! I swear to gods that they improved it's proc rate in the last patch. It's out of control, I love it.

But... yeah, Defensive Warriors. I love 'em. They just make the whole instance go soooo much smoother. Healing and otherwise.

[Soy]

Which would be why I never use Rockbiter in groups...

I've been trying to build my Shaman as the off-tank/support type though. So my theory was, as an off-tank, I should want to try and establish aggro. But in the end, Rockbiter was just getting me into more trouble than I wished for. :confused:

**and when I say off-tank, I mean in the context of a 5-man group. Because, let's get serious, in a raid, off-tanks should actually be Warriors :eek: **

[Myrkris]

I've been trying to build my Shaman as the off-tank/support type though. So my theory was, as an off-tank, I should want to try and establish aggro. But in the end, Rockbiter was just getting me into more trouble than I wished for. :confused:

**and when I say off-tank, I mean in the context of a 5-man group. Because, let's get serious, in a raid, off-tanks should actually be Warriors :eek: **

Oh, no problem with using it to off-tank. I use full-power Earthshock when looking for aggro as well. Purge is a pretty cheap aggro builder too. Hmm, this shaman-oriented thread hijack is brought to you by Myrkris, Potpie, and Soy... :)

[Sol]

Here is what is fun about a big slow 2H + retaliate

http://home.comcast.net/~solicitor/retaliate.jpg

[Soy]

Hmm, this shaman-oriented thread hijack is brought to you by Myrkris, Potpie, and Soy... :)

WE RULE!

...although, I'm still a Priest at heart.

[Soy]

http://home.comcast.net/~solicitor/retaliate.jpg

Look, there I am!! God I look good.

[Chofunga]

See the message title - STOP THE MADNESS! :D

I'll never advocate that we insist that a person spec a certain way - you all know I'm a fan of 31/5/15, and I'll suggest that if someone asks... but I'd never say we should make someone spec a certain way.

That said, I will point something out - as a group of guilds, we'll run into severe diminishing returns if EVERYONE ends up speccing protection. It's nice to have several protection warriors around, as they do get bonuses to aggro control in many situations (even considering that all my favorite moves from my protection days tend to be highly resistable or resisted outright in top end dungeons). We won't be short-circuited in a raid if none show up though... hybrid 31/5/15's can tank pretty much anything, and even 31/20 cookie cutter's will do in many situations. However... if we end up with 8 warriors in a raid... which does happen for us... we'll be significantly more gimped in the DPS department if 7 or 8 of them are protection specced than we would be if it was split 3 protection/ 5 cookie cutter (see the discussion of Beaf's ownage of the damage meter in ZG the other night).

I've only respecced once in my career... from 15/4/32 to 31/5/15 - I did it because I wanted to have some PvP success and I still needed to be able to tank HE raids. The way things are going in this thread, I may never have to tank again; I'm considering respeccing to the 31/20 cookie cutter build, not for PvP but to make up for the DPS lack we've often got in raids. It'll be a change of mindset, from hurting things while outlasting them to just flat out dismembering them... but I think I can make the "sacrifice".

Just my little rain cloud for the protection warrior sunshine party. ;)

[Ryndstrum]

Hee hee... Having nothing but def warriors would be pretty crazy. Surprised to find there are so many in this alliance. I'm currently the only pure-spec def warrior in Requiem, everyone else has dug deeper into Arms (to varying degrees) along with some Prot tree. So I'm used to having a nice DPS warrior alongside me as a MA.

And I end up hearing this from him a lot too: "Dodge some more! Come on, one more dodge! <splat>"...

[Darkkwing]

As you all know my guild, the Arch Angels Force aka the AAF, has only one Defensive tank. That's me. I've desided to imbrace this so I'll be uilitzed for my guild. Anyways my spec:



Arms
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Deflection 5/5- Yeah no brainer there. Parry helps me with Revenge, helps me parrying blows and helps me build up rage.

Tactical Mastery 5/5- Alot of people say it sucks but they are 100% wrong. In most casts I use arms form to charge the boss for 15 free rage points, swap to Defensive and retain 25 rage. Off the bat that's an sunder armor and a half ahead of your average warrior. Also If I need to use the other two stances or stay in arms if I am not MTing (Shooting the Snake boss before snake form one case) than I can swap, retain 25 rage in Defensive for a Sunder and a half.

Anger Mangement 1/1- Long and countious fights and I got the rage than yeah this is useful big time. So I retain my rage a bit longer than most and if it gets to the point I can easily have extra rage if we kill a few roamers and med fast enough have 30-50 rage at the start of an boss fight.

Fury
------

Crueity 5/5- I 5% Bonus in crits. I can cause some damage and get a few extra rage points

Protection
----------------

Shield Spec 5/5- I always carry a shield and 1her. So I always will need to improve my blocking. The rage it generations is nice with my spike and blocking each time some monster hits my shield.

Anticipation 5/5- Alot of people saying it's useless. I tell people I'll have 310 Def at 60 and with Def items I'll be well over the mark. So basically this gives you an edge and also helps with reducing being a crit target. Low Def = alot of crits. High Def = less crits.

Toughness 5/5- 10% Increase in armor with items is a bonus. Infact I did it so I can last longer in battle. Infact without it I'd have less than 58% rate. It's a must for an Protection Specer. Also alot of people say get Iron Will instead. I don't need it since I am undead and I'll have shamans use tremor totems.

Improved Revenge 3/3- I get laughed at each time I tell someone I put 3 points into it. WIth Shield block, Shield Spec, Deflection and other factors it helps. Also gives a nice stun ability to stop em in thier tracks. 5 rage vs 12-15 sunder armor is nice. So I can generate aggo like a mofo.

Improve Taunt 2/2- When your in a guild full of DPS this helps. Most of em try to out tank me so I just do my sunders and revenge and than Taunt the foes back to me. So I can easily build threat and if I lose it I can easily take it back. So this is an extremely useful talent.

Defiance 5/5- 15% is a huge difference over the other warriors I've grouped with. Infact it helps me build threat more. More Threat build = easier for me to hold threat. It's a must for each PRotection speccers in my eyes.

Improved Sunder Armor 1/3- Great ability. I ran out of points towards the end. SO I put one into it for a 14 cost. Anything to lower cost of Sunder armor is good.

Improved Shield Bash 2/2- ALot of people say why? Well alot of caster mobs I need to shut up. Also alot of spitting mobs can be silenced. I always do in UNdead Strat if shoot, move some and go back in fast and hit Shield Bash so they move to the safe spot. I use it mainily as a pulling ulitiy.

Concussion Blow 1/1 - Caster stun, stunner than heal method, and runner stopper if I feel no snares on it. Also great for PvP if I do it that to shut the paladins up.

1her Spec 5/5- Again I use a shield and 1her. So this helps me out alot for damage.

Shield Slam 1/1- Very useful in my eyes. It has an 50/50 1 buff purge. Also threat generation and damage is nice. The old ability I used alot too. Both very useful if you know what ya doing. Either way if your protection speccer get this and you'll love the damage and usefulness. (The purge don't purge paladin I WIN spell but power word shield drops like a mofo when the purge part hits it.)


That's my spec and it earned me alot of respect and also alot of hate from certain people cuse I taken over thier jobs of tanking when they can't do it the right way.

[Gorrack]

I have an Alt warrior at lvl 52... Rynd had written a crit type build warrior utilizing flurry, i believe the build was like 20/31 or something like that, I tweaked it a bit, because he was mainly going for a 2 handed Fury tank, I wanted to prove that you coudl do a dual weilding fury tank better than a 2 handed Fury tank. My spec is now going to go 17/34

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warriors/talents.html?2030502030200000000554310050501005000000000000000000

already, this spec is proving to be a monster, even without the +Crit or AGI gear around (went mostly STR/STA stuff because i still do my fare share of MT)

Even with this pure Offesnive build, when doing 5 mans, I still do all of the MT'ing (even with other higher level warriors there) Sol is 100% spot on that playing a warrior is 90% experience, and 10% competance (even a friggin army grunt can get it) I will be anxious to see how well a super fury dual weild build warrior works in the end game instances. Mostly as a MA or DPS tank.