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View Full Version : Raid Healing Hax, or Why does Rehab keep dying?



Myrkris
2006-05-09, 08:41 AM
In the last couple of MC raids, Rehab has been taking dirt naps with Jabber-like frequency. While you may think "he's MT2, that's not surprising" we're not supposed to be losing our MT 2 any more than we are supposed to lose MT 1. If we keep both of them up, we'll move faster. It's really that simple. But why all the deaths?

To start with, it isn't the amount of healing he's assigned. MT1 and MT2 have the same healing setup - a priest, a druid, and a shaman. To the best of my knowledge, I've only been assigning healing-specced people to those positions and they are all experienced raiders. That being the case, MT 2 shouldn't be dying more often than MT 1 unless there is a vast gear disparity (there isn't).

One part of the answer is dumb luck, though somewhat controllable luck. One of Rehab's deaths last night was on an Annihilator, which should raise a bit "WTF?" flag for all of us since they're trivial mobs. It was so surprising that Sol gave him shit about it over Vent. Raid healer mana was tolerable for a pull like that, though it was only about 25% due to the previous pull being a double destroyer pull. However, what Rehab didn't know was that 2 of his 3 assigned healers (the priest and druid) had died on the destroyer pull and had no mana or buffs when he pulled the Anni. The rest of us didn't manage to adjust, and he took one of his dirt naps.

A similar problem happened on the third Lava Pack, where he was simply out of LOS and range of his healers when he died. That's a recurring problem with that Lava Pack since it's such a long pull, and we should really consider either taking that one after Geddon or figuring out how to pull it without our tanks taking so much damage on the pull.

We also had problems with Rath going LD last raid, including during pulls. He was one of Rehab's healers, which may have contributed to the problems since adjusting to something like that takes time that an MT may not have.

While there is an element of bad luck in some MT deaths like these, we can limit that with better communication, coordination, and healing performance.

First, communication. The MTs have gotten away from saying anything over Vent or in /raid to alert us when they're pulling. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. If the raid doesn't know a mob (or lava pack, even worse) is incoming, there will be a lag in our reactions to the pull. Since we're dealing with mobs that can do thousands of damage in a second or two, any extra lag beyond the normal reaction time can get people killed. We need an pull announcement for every pull, especially because the healers need to know WHO is pulling so they don't get caught off guard by damage to an unexpected target.

Just pulling doesn't work, because we healers frequently can't see it happening. Terrain and bodies become big obstacles when you're sitting down and drinking. If the first warning we have of a pull coming in is people taking damage, we're much more likely to lose people.


Second, coordination. All of us in any leadership position bear some responsibility for this, because it's pretty opaque unless you are in the right chat channels. First, there's a pattern to the MT assignments that isn't normally spelled out for the raid as a whole. MT 1 and MT 2 are basically alternate raid tanks on trash fights. They trade off pulling to allow us to chain pull, and thus move faster. That means the healer groups for both MT 1 and MT 2 need to be on the ball on every pull since their assignment may be pulling the next mob during the current fight.

MT 3 and 4 are normally the backup tanks for MT 1 and 2, respectively. It's their primary job to pick up aggro on the MT 1 and 2 targets if those tanks go down. This means the MT 3 and 4 healers need to be on the ball and react right away if their assigned tank picks up a mob mid-fight. The healers on the MT that goes down should also be switching to help cover the backup as well as doing more raid healing, since some of the normal raid healers are switching to a focus on their MT.

MT 5 is normally the bailout tank. That's the warrior who is supposed to pick up any unexpected adds like a wandering ACH or a FL that we got too close to during a fight. When something like that happens, the MT 5 healers need to switch away from raid healing and they may need help from other general raid healers, depending on what added.

Beyond that general pattern, we really don't coordinate all that well between healers and tanks. While the healing coordinator is usually in the warrior channel, there has never been any of the main raid tanks in the healing channel as far as I know. As a result, they don't know who is assigned to what coverage and can't adapt to that. If Rehab had known that 2 of his three healers had died on the previous fight and just been rezzed, he might have either delayed pulling the Anni or alerted us that he was pulling so other healers could cover him for that fight. Instead, all he had to work with was raid healing mana and that didn't tell him that HIS healers were OOM. Both the MT 1 and MT 2 should be in hawcheal during MC raids so they're aware of issues like that.

A further coordination issue is buffing after deaths, particularly on trash. People who die shouldn't need to ask for a rebuff, especially not repeatedly. Buffers (druids, priests, and mages) shouldn't need to be reminded by their class coordinators to rebuff either. Both of those are common, though. I've had to ask 3-4 times for rebuff after dying, which demonstrates that some people need to pay attention a lot more than they are. I don't know how the mages do it, but the priests and druids are assigned a group for buffs and they are responsible for that group for the entire raid. That means they need to be aware of any need for rebuff, and take care of it. If they can't rebuff right away, at least acknowledge the need so that those of us waiting for the buffs don't have to keep asking and wondering wtf is going on.


Finally, there are a couple of things I've seen the MT healers do that can contribute to unnecessary MT deaths (I'm guilty of these as well). The first is drinking at the wrong time, and in the wrong place. Right after the fight most of us drink right away, which is exactly what we should be doing. However, if the MTs are rushing off to get to the next mob and we're sitting on our asses back at the bodies of the previous fight, we're not going to be in range when we need to heal. If you're assigned to MT 1, MT 2, or the MA and the raid moves, you should move with them regardless of your mana supply. Stay in range, and drink during the opening stages of the fight if you need to drink. Don't worry about "wasting" mana, the mages will supply more if you run out.

The second is trying to do everyone's job. The good healers, and we've got a lot of good healers in HAWC, take it personally when a group or raid member dies. They feel like it shouldn't have happened on their watch. That's all well and good, but NO ONE can keep an entire 40-person raid up. Trying to do so unnecessarily drains your mana, so it is normally counterproductive because it can put you on your ass, drinking when your MT needs you on the next pull.

Installing Scrolling Combat Text showed me how pervasive this is. One time, I was down about 2k in hp (so not in any danger) and I got hit with heals from 5 different healers in less than a second, totaling at least 5k in health. THREE of those healers were assigned to either MT1 or MT2, while the other two were assigned to raid healing.

In another instance, I watched one of the healers assigned to the MT healing rotation for the golemagg fight run over to Rehab's position and cast a heal about 6 times last Sunday night. Since it's no problem for a priest and a shaman to keep one of the off-tanks up during that fight, I have no idea wtf he was thinking.

Healers, do YOUR job and TRUST your fellow healers to do theirs. If you heal someone you don't need to heal and end up short of mana during the next fight or out of range of your MT because you're drinking, you made a mistake. To make chain pulling work requires us to conserve mana so we're ready for the next fight. That doesn't mean let someone die who you could save, but don't heal unassigned targets who are over 50% health. If everyone focuses on their assignment and only steps out of it when it's an emergency, the whole raid will actually run better. It'll also help us figure out if anyone ISN'T doing their job well, so we can coach them.


Wow, this got longer than I planned. I'm not naming names, because there's no point or value in doing so. If you're not in any of these roles, you can still benefit by learning more about how the raid works. If you're a healer or MT, think about what applies to your situation and feel free to discard the rest. If you have suggestions or comments to help improve these aspects, please make them since we can all benefit from talking about things like this.

Potpie
2006-05-09, 09:48 AM
Thank you Myrkris, that was beautiful!

Communication and Coordination... and I'll add another C-word: CONSISTENCY! ;)

Doing the same things with consistency develops expectations that can be relied upon.

"are we pulling yet?"

"I dunno, MTs consistently announce pulls, so since we haven't heard it, we aren't pulling yet. Keep drinkin'"

"are we gonna start this boss fight or what?"

"I dunno, a CT Ready check is done consistently before every boss fight - so we haven't seen it, there must be some more comms and coordination going on. Review your buffs and shortcuts, etc. again to make sure you're ready-ready."

Nurgs
2006-05-09, 09:48 AM
A further coordination issue is buffing after deaths, particularly on trash. People who die shouldn't need to ask for a rebuff, especially not repeatedly. Buffers (druids, priests, and mages) shouldn't need to be reminded by their class coordinators to rebuff either. Both of those are common, though. I've had to ask 3-4 times for rebuff after dying, which demonstrates that some people need to pay attention a lot more than they are. I don't know how the mages do it, but the priests and druids are assigned a group for buffs and they are responsible for that group for the entire raid. That means they need to be aware of any need for rebuff, and take care of it. If they can't rebuff right away, at least acknowledge the need so that those of us waiting for the buffs don't have to keep asking and wondering wtf is going on.


Myrc as far as buffs go, Since there are in most cases during the corse of normal raiding only a death once every 10 min or so and usually 1 dealth doesnt slow down the raid we just keep on pulling it can be hard for priests or druids who are focusing on thier tank/charge for the evening to get on the spot rebuffs. For example sunday night I was on Desp and i was like um yeah he isnt going to need alot (boy was i wrong) so i had to be up and ready to heal for the whole raid like MT1 and MT2. Anyway my idea is this assign a rebuffer, im not talking about boss fights where 10-15 people die and we normally just raid rebuff anyway im talking about 1 priest/druid who is assigned to rebuff the spattering of doh's along the way. (Shadow Priests :) or Feral/OOmkin druids would be awesome in this roll, cause i believe that you dont usually use them for MT/MA healers and usually have them playing the field


Just my idea from a former EQ shaman... Buffing sucks

Myrkris
2006-05-09, 09:52 AM
That's a reasonable suggestion Nurgs, and something the healing coordinator for the next three weeks (since it ain't me!) and the mage leader should consider. I personally prefer to have everyone pay attention to their group or two for buffs rather than put it all on one person, but I can see the argument for the other side.

Oh, and it's MyrK... ;)

wooti
2006-05-09, 10:02 AM
Do all healers have raid status up? The raid leaders/pullers tend to use this as a way to see if it is time to pull. When i am pulling i try and make sure healer mana is at least above 40%. Usually 50%. If everyone has raid status going and they see one of those magic number just expect a mob to be on the way. Of couse we are not going to pull a lava pack or duel destroyers at 40%. Those pulls have not been an issue.

Despicable
2006-05-09, 10:04 AM
For example sunday night I was on Desp and i was like um yeah he isnt going to need alot (boy was i wrong) so i had to be up and ready to heal for the whole raid like MT1 and MT2.

Rogues like to keep the healers on their toes! :) It's impossible to avoid with all the AoE going around and we take a ton of damage in MC.

I would also like to send out my thanks for all the bubbles I have been getting in MC. My survivability took a huge upswing and I think I've died randomly twice now in the past 3-4 trips.

Warcaster
2006-05-09, 10:09 AM
Don't forget to check mage mana prior to double fire lord pulls. Mages can blow almost our entire mana bar Blizzing them so our mana has to be 90% before we start one of those. Other pulls it's not such a big deal.

BloodLot
2006-05-09, 10:36 AM
On the rebuff issue...

Only thing I can suggest is that you have your casters using whispercast... Someone dies, it is easy for them to "/w bloodlot stam" to get their ghetto buff... Makes it to where the healers can keep doing their job without having to scan over the 39 other people for small rebuffs.

Potpie
2006-05-09, 10:40 AM
OMG! That rocks BL - I'd not heard of that!

So, I could go:

/w Muddus mark (druid buff)
/w Aredhel ai (mage buff)
/w Doom fort (priest buff)

and the addon would automatically cast it on me for them when it sees my whisper !?!?!

I assume the aliases after the caster's name are configurable?

Myrkris
2006-05-09, 10:40 AM
On the rebuff issue...

Only thing I can suggest is that you have your casters using whispercast... Someone dies, it is easy for them to "/w bloodlot stam" to get their ghetto buff... Makes it to where the healers can keep doing their job without having to scan over the 39 other people for small rebuffs.

Good point, and all part of the coordination since most people don't know who is assigned to buff their group. If we did buffing assignments in RAID chat, then people could note their buffer and shoot them a tell directly.Let's try that and see if it works?

Ralcah
2006-05-09, 10:42 AM
Edit: Please disregard the previous message here, as I obviously know nothing about healing.

Yexia
2006-05-09, 11:37 AM
VERY good posts, Myrk and Ral! I agree with all of it.

I also think that doing the buffing assignments in raid chat is a good idea, but I think it should be done in *both* raid and your specific channel. Raid chat gets very extensive, and it is hard to sort through all the chit-chat to find your assignment.

Pullers, *please* do announcements of when you are pulling, and what you are pulling. It only takes you a split second, and it gives me so much information in that second that you stand a better chance at survival. :) This helps me decide if I can mana up or if partial mana is all I should go with. If you are pulling a firelord I know that my tank will be fine for an extra 3 seconds where if it is a destroyer then I better have my sorry butt up and healing as the pull starts.

Nurgs
2006-05-09, 11:53 AM
whispercast is a GREAT mod! as long as its put out that we are using it then rebuffing isnt a problem also it doesnt auto cast but rather puts into que and you rebuff with a click to the person who sent you the /w

As long as there is some coordination between the priests/druids who have it so that people only have to change Who they wisper not What they wisper i think that it could be a great benifit and make multiple rebuffers alot easyer especially if we do announce who each groups buffer is or even better for a single rebuffer so you dont miss a request for rebuffing

my 2cp take it for what its worth

(did i mention that i HATE buffing so ask Yex!)

-Nurg

Dradius
2006-05-09, 12:29 PM
I think its all Jabbers fault. We need more warlock DPS so the tanks don't get hit and then we dont have to heal :) Maybe just dedicate one healer to him and we can all watch?

one a semi-serious note...I try to keep it simple...sometimes i am succesful and sometimes i am not.... I am not a huge fan of wispercast... It's a game and unless I interact with it..i might just as well auto-follow and drink my scotch ;) Just know i am VERY aware of my roles and am doing my best unless Greenie is busting my chops. ...and i will take a look at wispercast ...

Jabber
2006-05-09, 12:38 PM
More DPS..... hmmmm I think I can do that.....

Dradius
2006-05-09, 12:42 PM
More DPS..... hmmmm I think I can do that.....


SHOCKER:yikes: luv ya man.

Aredhel
2006-05-16, 02:31 PM
OMG! That rocks BL - I'd not heard of that!

So, I could go:

/w Muddus mark (druid buff)
/w Aredhel ai (mage buff)
/w Doom fort (priest buff)

and the addon would automatically cast it on me for them when it sees my whisper !?!?!

I assume the aliases after the caster's name are configurable?

I know I'm coming up on this late, but I'm bored and noone is posting. >.<

WC has a que window that you go in, so i can choose to either cast what you've asked for, or clear your request and laugh at you. Either way, it will let you know via whisper.

I'm loving having WC, but I need a good way to communicate to my buff groups to use it. Currently my ctraid is broken so that it won't show me certain parties, so I have to run through the raid tab for my groups to buff.

Potpie
2006-05-16, 02:33 PM
Currently my ctraid is broken so that it won't show me certain parties,

wtf fix it! :headbang:

Aredhel
2006-05-16, 02:40 PM
wtf fix it! :headbang:

Been too busy drinking my arse off with Myrc! omg!

I am going to delete all the folders and reinstall to see if that fixes it as soon as I get home.

Rehab
2006-05-16, 03:39 PM
A whole thread about me!!!! although its about me not doing good, excited anyway !!!!:afro: